Seventh Generation

AH: Have you encountered questions like this before?

CP: The complication that we are running into is what do non-Indians see in terms of Indian Country. Who is the likely audience for your book?

AH: It is targeted specifically towards people who live in Western communities.

CP: The people living 'in the West'; quite a diverse population. Folks living close to reservations, on or near Indian communities, we generally find a little more redneck/cowboy personalities, and the separation between the two groups is pretty significant. I doubt very seriously that they will be looking at Indian communities in the same light as urban Americans; San Francisco will have a different climate, Los Angeles will have a different climate, so there's going to be quite a bit of difference. So the typical American is almost an oxymoron.

AH: Exactly. What we are trying to do with the handbook is to reach as many people from as many walks of life as possible; economically, culturally, and in both rural and urban areas. The hope is that with the handbook we can clear up some misunderstandings between Native Americans and the popular culture as well as providing useful suggestions as to what concerned individuals can do to contribute to Native American causes.

CP: Let me put you on speakerphone… ok now Tia (sp?) is with us. Repeat again what you were saying before I put you on speakerphone.

AH: The idea of the handbook is that people living in the West would be better citizens of the West if they were better informed about local and regional issues. One issue involves the topics that affect Native Americans, as well as what Native Americans think is important that their Western neighbors know.

CP: I think the first issue is the recognition that diversity of the native tribal groups is as significant as the diversity within ethnic populations around the world; that Navajos are as different from Apaches as Germans are from Italians. I think the first awareness that non-natives need to have is that there is significant diversity culturally and linguistically in native communities. That diversity needs to be respected. There are some common concepts within native communities in terms of more of a global Indian, but if they're approaching native communities because they have known a few native folks, there shouldn't be a tendency to generalize.

AH: That sounds like an important point because there are what… almost 500 federally recognized tribes?

CP: Yeah, and about a hundred non-recognized tribes.

Tia: Particularly in California. That's really significant to emphasize because a lot of the groups in California don't have a land base, particularly in southern California where the missions have really overtaken and development has overtaken. Not being particularly concerned whether someone is recognized or not, in terms of a governmental sense, but whether they recognize themselves as a distinct cultural group.

AH: So an important point to emphasize then is that native's identities don't rely on land ownership as much as cultural identification?

Tia: The first thing in regards to that, in terms of identity, is that Indian people come out of the land, we didn't come over the Bering Strait; 5,000 years ago we weren't Asians in China. We came out of particular places and our specific thoughts and belief systems came from those places as well; we were shaped by the land, our language comes from the land. Aboriginal places determine what the distinctions are between the different native groups. Even tribal groups that share the same ecosystems are very different. Debunking that whole Bering Strait thing is a significant thing to start with.

AH: So that is the issue that you would start with to inform citizens of the West of alternately held view to the Bering Strait theory?

CP: Yeah respecting native cosmology. I think that it is a critical issue because a lot of folks will insist on the evolutionary theory.

Tia: There is probably not a single Indian in the whole U.S., or anywhere in the Americas, who would ever embrace that thought.

AH: Good information. What other stereotypes do you perceive that non-natives have of Native American people, and situations?

Tia: Probably the mistreatment, and lack of respect for, native women. Sometime there is a misunderstanding that if a woman isn't out front and acting aggressively, that it means that we aren't respected or listened to, and that we don't have significant roles. That's generally a misconception, because we may not fit into the Euro-American paradigm. What it does is set up a whole power hierarchy, which doesn't necessarily exist. Even then there is going to be differences among tribes. It is usually more a matter of separateness, not so much a matter of mistreatment or lack of power.

AH: So you suggest taking a culturally relativist view of native communities rather than imposing their own ideas of what a culture should be or what a woman's role is?

CP: Yeah, and I think the issue related to that is the word 'squaw': 'squaw valley', 'squaw peak', 'squaw street', and 'squaw fish'. It continues to degrade native folks. Going on with the whole name-place stuff -like logos and place names all over the U.S., and all the issues surrounding team sports and mascots- these are things that folks should be more aware of.

AH: So a greater awareness of endemic stereotypes?

Tia: Yeah. Within the mainstream it's perfectly acceptable to say 'squaw' or 'buck' or 'papoose', or yell to someone across the street calling them 'chief'. That kind of objectification is perfectly OK. But no one would ever say that some team was the so-and-so kikes, or the whoever niggers; they would never say something like that. For Indian people, those kinds of terms are just as violent, hurtful, and alienating.

CP: There is a whole area on that type of institutional racism within America that most folks accept almost as matter-of-factly as anything else in America. A part of that also is the other extreme of the ideal Indian…

AH: The 'Noble Savage'?

CP: Yeah, this brave warrior, this spiritual Indian. Sometimes it goes to the other extreme as well.

AH: You would suggest then to see Native Americans as individuals and try not to bring any expectations or preconceived ideas into that?

CP: Yeah, being aware of their own internal stereotypes when it comes to Indians. I think there is more stereotyping of Indians than any other race. Another area that we need to be aware of is that there are a lot of Indian Christians but by and large Indian traditions and cosmology -Indian spiritual understanding- is that we are not Christians. In a lot of tribes there are multiple gods or spiritual beings.

AH: You think that non-natives see Indians as Christians or not Christians?

Tia: That we all have a belief in one Great Spirit kind of deity. When you think about it, that's really a Judeo-Christian paradigm; there's not a panoply of deities doing all kind of things from rain to food to animals, which really is a lot more traditional than one god doing everything. It's been more of a translation of indigenous religion within the Judeo-Christian structure which has come up with the one god idea.

AH: You think there has been a lot of misunderstanding on that religious point?

CP: Yeah misunderstanding and the their insistence in their intercourse with native folks that there is only one god… or a mockery that someone might think that there are more than one god. In line with that, I think the cause that folks could get onto is the missionizing of Indians.

Tia: All missionizing. Conversion, by its very act, is an act of colonization.

CP: This opinion is held by all Native Americans. Not necessarily by those that have already been converted, but a lot of the traditional folks see missionizing Indians as a form of acculturation.

AH: That's a good point. Along the lines of the second question -in terms of ways that non-natives can effectively and respectfully contribute to Native American causes- from your view, which causes are best to support?

CP: I think there are a lot of good causes out there. I think the sovereignty movement in native communities is paramount in terms of how non-native people can support native issues.

AH: So the most important thing is support along the legal and political front?

CP: I would start there. Self-determination; Indians speak for Indians. Generally when folks are out campaigning and talking on behalf of Indians, they should be suspect immediately.

AH: Talking to John Echohawk of the Native American Rights Fund, he was of the opinion that the issues of sovereignty and self-determination were paramount.

CP: Along with the sovereignty and self-determination is water rights. That is going to be the battle of the future. When Los Angeles needs water, Indian water rights in northern California are going to be almost irrelevant. But beginning to prepare the American West for these battles is very important. We have first and primary rights to use of water for maintaining culture, for preserving the species that we live with and preserving ourselves as native peoples. The water rights that native peoples hold need to be maintained, for basic survival over the long run.

AH: Your suggestion would be for non-natives to educate themselves and others in the West about it so that there is more awareness of it? Or are there specific causes that they could contribute time and/or money to?

CP: I would say, first of all, just educating themselves to these issues.

Tia: There is also a kind of philosophical grounding to that too, even going back to the first remarks about the Bering Strait. Based on our aboriginal right, as the first people of these lands, there needs to be an understanding that that forms the basis for the relationships, the conducts, the belief systems, cultures, and lifeways of indigenous people's here. It needs to be recognized that that's primary here, and that those are foremost; that must supercede any political or social agenda that a support organization might have. For instance, environmental groups might ally with Native American groups about something like saving a forest. Sometimes the environmental groups forget that the ancestors of those Native American groups have been in that forest for centuries and the environmental groups are talking about keeping it 'pristine' and not letting anyone in there. Indians have probably been going in there; gathering from there, relating there, and probably have a whole cosmology and set of relationships and ceremonies with that place. So people need to understand that aboriginal relationship with these lands are always primary to anything else.

AH: That's also more of a self-education issue?

CP: I think the other extremely important self-education issue is the sacredness of the earth, and the wisdom and knowledge that grows from an indigenous people's cosmology. There are sacred places here in the United States. Folks need to step out of the Judeo-Christian belief system and respect the sacredness of the Americas. Only when that fully happens, can there be meaningful work towards preserving the earth, the species, and the world. The conquest and domination mentality of Euro-Americans is dead set on destroying everything in their path. There are sacred places and those places need to be respected, and worshipped. Until there is a connection with that sacredness the American society will continue to be as crazy and greedy as they have been in the past. That step outside of Judeo-Christian thought also is that sacredness is relevant to all species -to an ecosystem. Man, human beings -Indian or white- possesses no special relationship with a singular god. That fallacy is hell-bent on destruction of the earth. And that has to change.

AH: So then a greater recognition of human brotherhood, in the sense that all of us are in this together?

CP: All of the species.

Tia: Beyond the anthropocentric view, seeing the equity between all life -from the smallest non-visible thing to a mountain. This includes all the rights and responsibilities that go with that: reciprocity, and mutuality.

AH: With the handbook we are trying to make as specific suggestions as possible to non-natives. Besides the self-education issue are their other ways that folks can contribute to Native American causes?

CP: Well, certainly by voting; In terms of all of the issues, the analysis of the issues with how they will affect the first Americans. I think that is the first and primary way. People's workplaces and the destruction that they may be participating in is another way to look at something that they can do immediately. I think what you are asking for are some real specific sacred land campaigns, anti-nuclear campaigns, ant-dumping in Indian Country efforts. There are literally hundreds and thousands of those issues and campaigns out in Indian Country that definitely need support; political support, social support, financial support. It's hard to prioritize all of those issues. In general, the best bet is that individuals educate themselves and expand their awareness of what they are doing and what their responsibilities are.

AH: Change cultural perceptions and open people's eyes about these issues that they have never been taught?

CP: Yeah.

AH: How important do you think supporting Native American education is compared with other Native American causes?

CP: It depends on how you define that… (I lost a few seconds of audio as I flipped the tape). If we are talking about traditional native knowledge, Indian education from a native perspective then I would rate that extremely high. I would have a tendency to put sending money for scholarships to get Indians through an educational curriculum that has no value or relevance to their cultural belief pretty low on the list.

AH: Emphasize scholarships more for tribal universities?

CP: I could understand that. Mostly just encouraging people to find those traditional educational processes that are happening out there -and most tribes have them.

Tia: An example would be: cultural education, working with elders, recovering language. The kinds of things formulated -tribal colleges often just have things like 'English 101' and 'Economics' based on market systems and capitalism as well, they just happen to be on reservations. What we are talking about is shifting the focus of support or funding and whatever else to the work that is actually going to benefit not only that individual in his or her life's work but really the whole community.

AH: That is an interesting point that hasn't come up in other interviews.

CP: The concept of 'Seventh Generation' is to make sure there are Indians that think and believe in their tribal identity and tribal understanding seven generations from today. The current educational system in America is designed to prevent that.

AH: Your suggestion then, is that it is important for Native American communities to take the educational curriculum under their own power and form it as they think it should be. A curriculum not based on Western beliefs…

CP: American values, yeah. There are a lot of things happening: Indian controlled schools, Indian controlled education.

AH: And that is what you would suggest lending support to?

CP: Yes.

AH: I feel like I have gotten a lot of really good information from both of you…

CP: At some point when you put those recommendations together, could you email those out. It would be good to take another look at all those recommendations combined to see what they look like.

AH: I can send you an email of a preliminary draft so you can see how all the information is shaping up. Thanks for your time and input.